DUNE BOOK CLUB :: Week 03!
November 2nd, 2009 — 09:23 am
Well hello there! I’m pretty bleary here in the early morning, but I’ll try to sound smart for all of you. Please keep your various sniggers and eye-rolls to yourselves, thank you very much.
The section of the book we read this week is one of my favorites, and to me the place where it starts to really get interesting, really move into the mix of story, legend-building, and science/philosophy that sets the book apart. I’m going to talk about three things that stick out to me, and then I’d prefer to hear more from YOU guys this week–there’s plenty to talk about.
ONE: in this section of the book we’re introduced for the first time to the Fremen as such (excepting the Shadout Mapes from earlier), both in the person of Stilgar and somewhat less so in Dr. Kynes, although it is with Kynes that we are first introduced to the stillsuit.
above, by Paul Pope
I point this out less for plot purposes–listen, this book is lousy with Fremen past this point–and moreso for the metaphoric importance of the stillsuit. To me, the stillsuit itself is an enormously significant symbol in the book; not only is it the sort of de facto “uniform” of the Fremen, but it is a visual vector of much of the philosophy of the book. Consider that the stillsuit is basically a machine designed to a) minimize the body’s loss of water in the desert, and b) convert the body’s waste into potable water.
More than anything else, the stillsuit underlines the precariousness of life in the deep desert, and ties the characters in the story to the “Law of the Minimum,” which Jessica and Kynes discuss at the dinner party. To paraphrase: growth in a system is limited by that necessity available in the least supply. The stillsuit exists only to preserve water, and each time it appears in the book, we are dealing with a deep part of the Fremen culture, a bridge between their nomadism/tribalism and real science, and the ecological overtones of the book. Without beating us over the head with it on every page–”Jeez guys I am so darned thirsty in this hot desert water sure is scarce!”–Herbert creates a shorthand description of privation in the word “stillsuit.”
TWO: Dr. Kynes is one of my favorite characters in the book, complex enough to have multiple overlapping motives (“Liet serves two masters”), noble enough for us to identify with him, and Fremen enough to be capable of quick and cold violence. He also is a great middle ground between the politics of one part of the story and the ecology of the rest. That’s all, I like this guy, just wanted to say.
above, by Evan Dahm
THREE: The dinner party. I love this chapter, there’s SO MUCH interesting stuff in it. You may not have found it as fascinating as I do, and I’ll admit that usually a long chapter that’s basically a bunch of people talking at dinner would be super boring. But Herbert does an interesting thing here that he uses to great effect later: if you notice, all the dialogue is essentially miniature combat between characters. No one knows what anyone is thinking, and all are constantly striving to read subtext and context, parrying and riposting. Even Jessica and the Duke are trying to figure each other out. There’s all this tension, even though the most violent act in the scene is probably when the Duke pours his water on the floor and freaks everyone out a little.
In the remainder of the book, and even more so in the later books in the series, Herbert uses this combative dialogue a lot, A LOT, sometimes successfully and sometimes not. But here, this scene at dinner, we get a lot of exposition, a lot of characterization of these complex people, but in a setting that’s tense enough to create real drama. I love it.
The other thing I love: The Law of the Minimum. I think about it all the time.
I only have one question for you guys, although I’d love to hear your own. Here it is: is water or spice the most valuable commodity on Dune? And whichever, how does that commodity’s insertion into the Law of the Minimum aphorism affect the systems on Dune, both political, tribal, financial, ecological, etc.?
Okay guys it’s about to get exciting: for next week, read to the end of Part One, the chapter that ends, “And he felt the tears coursing down his cheeks.” Oh man, so good.
Category: BLOG 20 comments »
November 2nd, 2009 at 4:01 pm
Depends on whom you ask. To all the offworlders, the immediate answer is the spice. It’s why they’re there in the first place, it makes travel between the stars possible, it’s the foundation of the entire galactic economy.
Nothing happens on Dune, however, without water. Ask a Freman what’s more important. Spice is almost the universal MacGuffin in Dune. Almost…
But, as you say, the book is about systems. Odds are disrupting one would disrupt the other. A hard question to really dive into so early in the book.
Also, just found the blog today and have to say it, and all the accompanying art, are brilliant! Looking forward to following along. Cheers!
November 2nd, 2009 at 5:40 pm
“He who can destroy a thing controls a thing.” Like any system there are multiple points of entry to disrupt its smooth operation. On Arakis its the same. You can disrupt Fremen life by playing to their beliefs. You can disrupt the life of the Empire by interupting the flow of the spice which will get you either wanted or unwanted attention from outside. Everything hang precariously on the edge or life and death.
November 2nd, 2009 at 5:42 pm
Thus water is more valuable since water can destroy the spice but the reverse is not true. Water gives you control in a way that spice does not. If you think big that is.
November 2nd, 2009 at 5:56 pm
Thanks there, Wedge!
You bring up an interesting distinction: there’s a difference between how “offworlders” think of spice and how the Fremen (the “natives”) do. Doubly so the importance of spice as a foundational element in the economy. Just look at what kind of craziness fluctuating oil prices brought on a couple of years ago..
November 2nd, 2009 at 6:52 pm
Yes exactly– the spice is most valuable for the empire as a whole, while water is most valuable to people living on the planet where the spice comes from, so really water is most important. It’s a nested set of minimums, maybe: the growth of the empire, or the extent of interstellar travel, is limited by the amount of spice… while the growth of civilization on Arrakis and therefore the amount of spice exportable is limited by the amount of water. Right?
The introduction of Stilgar is wonderful; it might be one of my favorite bits of the book so far (I’m maybe 3/4 done). The spitting on the table thing is surprising and shows immediately the significance of water on Arrakis and among the Fremen.
I’m going to try to do more illustrations for future discussions. I frequently read books that make me want to draw the stuff in them but I never actually do it.
November 2nd, 2009 at 6:56 pm
This water/spice relationship will get way more significant later, so I don’t want to shoot ahead too far, but yeah–systems within systems.
I like Stilgar too, although I liked Dr. Kynes a lot–his character is so weird, not really an archetype of any kind. He’s a government functionary but apparently capable of extreme violence, judging by the fear of those around him; he’s haughty and a little jerky but grudgingly admires the (also occasionally jerky) Duke; he’s a man of science but finds himself wondering if Paul is the boy spoken of in the Fremen prophecies. On this reading I really found myself reading all the parts concerning him very closely–the ecology of the planet is so important to the story and the philosophy of the book, so I can’t help but try to read subtext into every little thing he says.
November 2nd, 2009 at 7:21 pm
It’s probably important to note that, at the start of the book, and despite all the changing of guards and political machinations and plans within plans, As far as Dune itself is concerned, the System is in balance, and has been for quite some time. The book begins at the very opening of the window where mankind has evolved to the point where they might begin to directly interact with that balance.
The similarities to the Industrial Revolution and the last 100 years of human development are pretty poignant now, never mind from 1965.
Kynes is one of my favorite ‘Gone Native’ characters, akin to the turn-of-the-century English man of action ideal. Sort of an offworld Allan Quatermain, having realized somewhere along the line that these Fremen folk have the right of it, and throwing himself all-in to that while not quite severing his ties to the Crown because it’s useful to him. He’s playing the same game as everyone else in the book, but he leaves it endearingly on his sleeve because it’s really secondary to his work.
November 3rd, 2009 at 3:22 am
WOW! As an outsider of the BOOKCLUB, I can only say this is the most awesome conduction into cartooning a book can get!
November 3rd, 2009 at 11:17 am
Good points, Wedge! I can see why you’re such a good wingman. Industrial Revolution, eh? Hm hm hm..
November 3rd, 2009 at 12:08 pm
A Dune bookclub blog…. genius!
I am currently not reading the books, but have read them all about 5 times, so will throw in my two cents.
I think water and spice are of equal value in the book.
At first when we come to Dune, we are told Spice is the most precious substance in the universe, vital to every major School, vital to the upper classes and life expectancy, and most importantly, uniquely vital to effective space travel(Foldspace).
However, once we arrive on the planet and meet the native Fremen, we find that they value water above everything else. Spice is extremely common to them. Spice gives them many unique characteristics as a people, but is not vital to their survival. If there were any people in the Dune universe who don’t give a fig for space travel, it’s the Fremen.
One of the major themes throughout the entire Dune series is survival. When everything is stripped away, it is the only thing that finally matters. Most of the universe could still survive for hundreds or even thousands of years without Foldspace capabilities, but the entire human empire would be gone within 3 days without water.
In the end, Spice is a fictional substance Herbert created upon which all the motivations of the novels depend and revolve. It was meant to be an allegory for oil and mobility. But when we arrive to the one place in the universe where it exists, you find from the local population that water is more precious. Through Spice, I think old Herb’s was firmly drawing our attention to the most precious substance in our real world. Water.
November 3rd, 2009 at 5:03 pm
Sorry, had a super busy week last week. Didn’t get to crack the book once. Will do my best to play catchup and jot down some thoughts.
November 3rd, 2009 at 5:26 pm
My mother, without actually investigating it too closely, got me a copy of the novel when the movie came out in 1984. I struggled through it- I was twelve!- and ultimately loved the things I understood while being able to give the stuff that went over my head a pass. I’ve re-ingested the entire series multiple times in the intervening 25(!!) years (I was able to jump in here without actually picking the book back up, scaring myself a little in the process).
It’s just obscure enough that it’s not something I’ve ever really been able to expand my thoughts about to anyone else, so the setup here of progressive discovery is really a lot of fun. I wish I’d found it three weeks ago! I promise to keep it to a dull roar.
November 3rd, 2009 at 5:39 pm
Welcome aboard Wedge–I’m digging your enthusiasm; I’m the same way. I know I have YEARNED for years for people to talk Dune with, with precious little relief. So this has been fun as heckfire for me, not to mention great drawing practice.
November 4th, 2009 at 12:33 am
Here’s this week’s art from me. It’s late, but I daresay it’s gnarly. Shai Hulud time! http://butimawizard.blogspot.com/2009/11/dune-book-club-shai-hulud.html Something different from the ink and pencil drawings I did previously.
The water/spice question hard for me to relate to since I only understand the necessity of water to life. But I may say that water is a scarcer resource on Arrakis right now. Partly because of the frequent mentions throughout of the ubiquity of spice on the desert planet. Spice is in everything…
Another thing that I had to puzzle out was the repeated mention of the “geriatric” nature of spice. Most definitions of geriatric I see describe the word as relating to elderly health care. So it sounds like spice prolongs people’s lifespans or promotes health, but I wonder to what degree. Also, I remember mention of the Guild Steersmen in the early chapters as being mutated or changed because of spice intake. Spice use gradually turns one’s eyes blue, and possibly eventually begins to change your body into other forms. What a weird substance!
I wonder, if spice prolongs life/ensures health to a degree, if it serves as sort of a support to human life in the absence of more abundant water on Arrakis. Could the Fremen and others survive on such a severe desert planet without spice to sustain them as well?
I need to slow down on reading since I’m already ahead of next week’s reading quota. I don’t want to accidentally let something from the future slip.
November 4th, 2009 at 10:38 am
Side note: is anybody going to be at King Con Brooklyn this weekend? I’ll be there sharing a table with my buddy Mike, come seek us out! Would be down for talking some Dune or sketching little sand worms on your show merch.
November 4th, 2009 at 3:57 pm
I and my family are under the weather this week, wayyy under, so I’ve not been able to think about this section as much as I would like. Which, is really sad because it has three of my favorite chapters.
Dustin- great Idaho pic. One of the few visual images of him I’ve seen that capture that feline look he should have.
On the law of the minimal- that’s one of the areas where this book has been like a Bible to me. Simplicity is divine and can be as beautiful as something that has been over done or romanticized. Herbert’s writing style is complementary to this. Great lessons in this which parallel a lot of religious and spiritual thought. The first step in most of those schools of thought is the destruction of the ego – or letting go- simplifying – putting the most important first- etc.
Kynes is so very great. Very complex. He’s noble and refined but a bit savage at the same time. The line about having Stilgar send Duncan’s head to the Duke comes to mind. Also something to pay attention to here are his multiple roles and multiple names. We’ll be seeing more and more of this stuff where people have multiple names and those names are basically different people to different people. Some Biblical parallels there to talk about later.
Combative dialog- nice term. Probably what I love so much about Herbert. Some fantastic scenes in this section. Duke vs. Kynes. Duke vs. Hawatt. Duke vs. just about everyone. Poor Duke. That war room meeting scene is just mind blowing. It’s like a one act play all to itself.
Water or Spice? Good question and good answers from everyone. Control spice and you control the universe. Control Dune and you control the spice. Control the water on Dune and you control Dune and can destroy the spice. Round and round we go.
Peter- On the geriatric nature of the spice- there is a part where the Duke is thinking about how just a short time in contact with the spice can make his people immune to most poisons- so, it’s got to be very potent and pretty fast.
November 5th, 2009 at 3:21 pm
[...] scribbles from dune! paleontology is way sweet! kynes is the paleontologist on arrakis and he is a [...]
November 5th, 2009 at 3:30 pm
HOLY MUAD´DIB THINGS RE GETTING AWESOME!
so i can’t talk much because i’m at a freelance gig pretending i’m working…i even managed to sneak scanning a drawing:
http://www.smomotion.com/2009/11/05/kynes/
believe me i’ll be back to ramble later [s much to discuss!], but for now i LOVE the dynamic of kynes, his smuggle buddy and the duke in this chapter! the dinner party is amazing! i’ve been reading way ahead, things are so intense it’s hard to stop!
that’s all i have time for for now, i’ll be back!
oh and dustin, thanks for including my repilian! and thanks for the credit! feel free to call me just “smo” that’s what most people do, i don’t want you to get keyboard finger strain from writing my whole name out [i just kinda do that to be obnoxious anyway! ha!]! take it easy duners!
November 5th, 2009 at 9:29 pm
haha, smuggle buddy!
November 12th, 2009 at 9:56 pm
Spice or water?
- the spice is valuable to all but the natives. It can prolong one’s life, is the lynchpin to interstellar travel, and the lust for it and the value put upon it by the great houses holds them in sway. The symbolic connection with oil is even more acute having just written that initial statement.
But, is the spice something to be found in a bottomless well? At this point in the story, nobody has put forth an understanding of how the spice is formed, so it can’t truly be said that the spice will flow forever. They believe it will, but they have nothing to base that upon.
- Water has to be the more valuable commodity. There’s the obvious need of the human body for its survival. But it’s more than that. The water is hidden on this planet (they harvest the dew, some of the few plants that live wild are described as “stealing water,” and they use windtraps to retrieve the invisible moisture from the air).
And given enough water, this world could be changed. Kynes believes there is enough, though he does not say it outright. What would a changed Arrakis with fertile ground and rainstorms be like? What would it do to the spice? The groundswell of change would be unfathomable for this society that has built its wealth/mobility/way of life upon the spice. And that would all come about from water. And the Fremen would care little what had happened to the offworlders.
Getting these thoughts down, DUNE could almost be seen as an allegory for the Vietnamese conflict (or any other similar insurgency by a larger, “technologically superior” force) Not that Herbert intended that, but it could be read that way.
- Duke Leto. I really liked the characterization of him. We’ve been told he’s honorable and earns the loyalty of those who follow him. It would have been easy to write him as this holier-than-thou figure. But Herbert gives him a ruthlessness (when he is arguing with Paul about Hawat’s failings after the hunter-seeker or when he is conceiving an attack on the Harkonnens’ horded spice, which is a plan of action not readily accepted by his counsellors) that feels very real for the situation and the position he holds, and it makes him more human and more interesting.
- Kynes. Yeah, I really like him a lot too. And I do love having Max von Sydow talking in my head when I read his lines.
- The dinner party is amazing. I could feel the excitement/anticipation in my fingers as I was reading this chapter. The way Herbert makes it all flow naturally from the characters is wonderful. And the use of the Bene Gesserit “awareness” to let readers in on the underpinnings of much of what is said does not come off poorly and adds so much to that tension you mentioned Dustin. Yeah. Really great writing.
I am loving this book all over again.