DUNE is ostensibly a science fiction novel. But like most good genre fiction, the trappings of its genre are little more than a container large enough to hold the story. Dune is not about spaceships or lasers, though both of those make brief appearances from time to time. Dune is not about aliens, though there are some of those too, later on.
Dune is about systems and forces. The most obvious are the systems of peoples within the book: political systems, sociological systems, religious systems. But underlying all of these are ecological systems–remember that the book itself is named “Dune,” the ersatz name of the planet the story takes place on, and from which a bizarredly convoluted epic spins out over the successive books in the series. Don’t worry, we can ignore those for the purposes of our might DUNE BOOK CLUB, but it’s important to point out.
Dune deals mainly with systems and the introduction of forces into those systems. Throughout the novel, the phrase “plans within plans,” and different permutations thereof, is repeated over and over. All things are interconnected, and force exerted on one thing will necessarily impact all other things within that system. If you look at the book in this way, it takes on a whole new life as a rich treatise on politics and ecology, wrapped up inside an epic adventure story. Ooh I’m getting excited just talking about it!\
above, by Pen Ward
I’m not really good at this sort of writing/thinking/discussion-leading, so I’m just going to wing it. I’ll point out a couple of interesting things I noticed and ask a couple of questions–but I’d love to hear what YOU noticed, what YOU are thinking. This is a book with a near-bottomless subtext, so there is plenty to pull out for examination. I just talk a lot, so I don’t want to be all like blah-blah-blah, y’know.
OKAY, I NOTICED:
1) In the first little chapterish thing, Frank Herbert introduces his protagonist (SPOILER ALERT, PAUL IS THE PROTAGONIST, SORRY) and immediately throws him into a seemingly life-or-death struggle. The book begins with a double-dose of mortality and mysticism, a strange beginning for a sci-fi novel written in the 60′s. It makes me think of this excerpt, just after Paul removes his non-charred hand from the black box:
“Ever sift sand through a screen?” she asked.
The tangential slash of her question shocked his mind into a higher awareness: Sand through a screen. He nodded.”
There’s a lot of this verbal/philosophical play in the book, especially in the later, more philosophical sequels. Sometimes it can get kind of cloying, everyone talking to each other with four meanings in their mouths, but it makes dissecting the dialogue more interesting.
above, by Peter Lazarski
2) The second chapter is all politics, another of the important systems in the book. Jeez, it’s super boring too, isn’t it?–after all that secret black box and shadowy Bene Gesserit hoodoo of the first chapter? I don’t mind all the politics stuff, but I think Herbert tried to cram a bunch of exposition in these early chapters, which sometimes works (I love the conversations between Paul and Thufir Hawat and Gurney Halleck in the fourth chapter), but sometimes is just a bunch of jerks giggling to each other about their Important Secret Plan.
3) I think it’s important to point out the quasi-feudal structure of the world of Dune, as laid out in the fourth chapter. Not so much that the politics itself is important, but more what CREATED that structure: something called The Holtzmann Effect. Which, basically, means that you can’t shoot lasers at people or their little shield-thingies will create a quasi-atomic explosion incinerating shooter and shootee and a few miles in all directions. That sounds pretty sci-fi, right? But in one of the few blatant sci-fi moments in the book–remember, it was published in 1965–Herbert effectively removes a lot of that super-science from the rest of his story. Because these shield protect from projectile weapons (guns, et al), and lasers are no good, everyone has to revert to fencing if they want to kill each other. In some ways, Dune is almost a “steampunk” story, anachronisms like swords next to science bits like spaceships.
Ditto the lack of computers in the story, which is just nuts for 60′s sci-fi. Not only are there no “thinking machines” in the story, but there are religious proscriptions against them! They have been replaced by highly trained “Mentats”, basically computer people. Super crazy, making a sci-fi story about a bunch of people who mainly depend on their own wits and abilities.
Who can say what the real purpose of this is, but to me it creates a framework that makes the story somewhat more believable than if people were raygunning each other all the time. It’s interesting to see how Herbert juggles this stuff throughout the book, because it’s not like there isn’t a ton of weird stuff later.
above, by Pat Keck
4) In the first few chapters, we’re introduced to three of the major forces at work in the book: the Bene Gesserit Sisterhood and the Atreides and Harkonnen clans. I was struck at how archetypical these descriptions were; while the Baron Harkonnen is “grossly and immensely fat,” the Duke is “hawk-faced”. Similarly, the Reverend Mother, one of the Bene Gesserit, is described as an old crone, wizened and wrinkled. I’m not sure what my point is, but I guess I’m thinking more on rereading on the tension in the story between how things appear and how they actually are.
5) The idea of eugenics in the book is huge, and Herbert immediately casts a dim eye on it through his main character Paul–”..he felt an offense against… his instinct for rightness.” But having said that, we know from the first chapter that Paul is part of a long chain of breeding for a specific purpose, and at the end of the first chapter he’s revealed to also have “Mentat potential,” meaning he has other advanced abilities at his disposal.
Is Paul supposed to be like a Superman? I don’t necessarily mean OUR idea of Superman, but more Nietzsche’s superman, the ubermensch. Just an idea.
Okay dudes, that’s enough from me, sorry I tend to run on. What did YOU guys think? I’m especially interested in hearing from people who are reading it for the first time–remember, if you’ve already read the whole thing, try not to spill any beans for these guys. It’s not like the book hinges on suspense, but I think it will be interesting to look at things with new eyes and old eyes at the same time.
AND ALSO: remember no swearing or jerkery in the comments please. It’s just how I like things.
AND ALSO ALSO: you artists who have mentioned sketches and stuff, send me those badboys or post links! I’d love to include the images in the actual blog post as we go through the week! My email should be in the sidebar at right.
EXTRA ALSO UPDATE ALSO: For this Monday’s discussion, read up to (roughly, depending on your edition) around page 88-90, to the end of the chapter that ends with “They have tried to take the life of my son!”
Dustin! Awesome summation! Here's a blog post I made with some art to share with the book club folks: http://butimawizard.blogspot.com/2009/10/dune-boo…
One thing that stuck out to me was the semi-hermaphroditic nature of Paul Atreides. The Reverend Mother confronts the Lady Jessica multiple times in these first chapters for having born a son (a male heir) to Duke Leto and the House Atreides. She was supposed to have born a daughter to mend the rift between the Atreides and Harkonnen houses. And we get the idea that lady Jessica has been giving Paul Bene Gesserit training, skills that only Bene Gesserit "witches" possess. So Paul was born a male because his mother disobeyed her order, and he has secret training of this secretive monastic all female sect…gender seems like it plays a big role in their society structure, and may also be a continuing theme in the story.
I'm thinking Paul Atreides is metaphorically hermaphroditic. He's sort of shapeless right now as he has potential and preparation by both feminine (his mother Jessica) and masculine forces (Thufir Hawat, Duncan Idaho, Gurney Halleck, Dr. Yueh, and his father the Duke). By being flexible and unshaped he's well poised for any adventure ahead of him which would become his shaping experience (viewing this as a potential rite of passage story). I feel like I'll be able to elaborate on this more specifically to Dune as we read a little more (don't want to be a spoiler). For now though I'm going to look into other dual gendered /ambiguous gendered hero figures and see if I can find anything interesting there.
I've started reading Joseph Campbell's Hero With A Thousand Faces, and from the perspective of what Campbell talks about in the early chapters I've been picking up on some cool parallels in Dune to classic myth and fable structure. Caladan is Paul's known world and a safe sphere. Arrakis is the dangerous wilderness outside Paul's known world. The Reverend Mother then becomes the supernatural gatekeeper to the wilderness. Making Paul pass the trial of the Gom Jabbar becomes a sort of talisman, or the Gom Jabbar plus the discussions she has with Paul are preparatory experiences necessary to Paul's survival in Arrakis/the wild.
I'm going to try to keep equal pace between Hero With A Thousand Faces and Dune, in case there's more insight to share from there.
Maybe replace "hermaphroditic" with "androgynous" up there. Makes a little more sense.
Great stuff guys. Very cool art. As to the genetics thing, Paul is the result of generations of breeding and manipulation but it's also important to remember that he is an accident. He's too early. He was supposed to be a girl etc. And the reason he exists at all is… que cheesy Hollywood music… love. Yep, dang old lame love messing up my hardcore sci-fi. Oh well, Jessica's love of Leto and desire to please him by providing a male heir trows a wrench in everything and pretty much wrecks the known universe. (I guess that's sort of a spoiler right?) Good times. As to the mythology thing, and this is more spoiler junk so I won't say too much but think Greek. Paul is very much the man of two worlds. He's god raised as man. Man trained to be a god. Man trained to be a woman. Moses the Hebrew raised as an Egyptian. Hercules the god raised as a man. And again, with both Moses and Hercules it's love that trows a wrench in everything. Love that saves a life that should not have been saved or gives a gift that should not have been given.
The thing is also written like a stage play. It's Shakesperean for sure. A series of meetings revealing plans within plans with plans. Everyone has an agenda. Trust no one.
As to the feudal nature of things and how all the systems work. I think it was clear that Herbert was using a sci-fi metaphor to comment on how oil was going to shape the world and create wars not only between people but wars between man and nature. It's sort of amazing to see how dead on right he was and how little things have changed since then.
One other thing to consider about Paul's education is he's simultaneously being trained as a noble, as a Mentat, and as a Bene Gesseritt. One of the classic mythological tropes is the hero who tries all other ways and either discards them and finds his own way, or syncretizes them into a far greater whole. Paul will do a bit of both before the book is over. Transcending gender classifications is part of the journey he takes.
I do have to agree with Dustin, though, that large tracts of Dune are boring as spit. The first few times I started to read the book I was unable to get more than 100 pages in because I'm not not that impressed by world-building for its own ends. It doesn't help that an awful lot of space is spent introducing characters who are only peripherally important – Duncan Idaho, for instance, gets an awful lot of face time even though he doesn't really do anything significant until the sequels.
Duncan becomes super important later but I think his role in the first book is still pretty cool. He's basically there just to romanticize things a bit. He's more of a traditional impulsive hero in this very formal world. He and Gurney are the closest thin in the book to the common man. Or at least, they can get drunk and make asses of themselves when no one else seems to be allowed too. But yeah, I conceed that if you take him out of the book, it's still the same book.
Mmmm.. so I've just been concentrating on finding something in the book that I can imagine by myself. I keep pulling images of characters and scenes from my old memories of Lynch's movie while I'm reading.. which is bumming me out. I've been trying to force characters to look different in my mind.. so far I've gotten Piter to look kinda like Eddie Munster and I got the Baron's Mentat to look like Odo from Deep Space Nine.. … I'm not proud of myself about this.
The only original imagining I had was of Paul's dream of the girl in the cave with the water. I imagined her like a salamander girl. So I drew that. Which I'm glad you posted in the blog my man. I wanna see everyone's doodles if you know what I mean.
-Pen!
1. The first thing that struck me back when I read Dune for the first time many moons ago, and still does to this day, is the immenseness of the story. This is so far into the future, so different, yet recognizable. Right off the bat there are unfamiliar words and descriptions. This isn't a post-apocalyptic Earth story, little green Martians story, nor a "hit-you-over-the-head" Big Brother story so popular in the 60's. This is Us, in the far-flung future…old and new, same yet different. I remember thinking as a 13yo (my first reading)and even now as a 39yo (my umpteenth reading), "There is a vocabulary section? Maps? Wow, this is deep". And it is…still.
2. It is interesting the NEW things I notice even after many many readings. Hopefully not spoiling…but the opening inner dialog on bloodlines and "who must not be named", made me snicker. First time I really noticed that line.
3. I could go on and on, but work does call, haha. The politics, the "plans within plans", caste system, ecology, mysticism, scifi aspects, all of it, makes for just an amazing read. Again.
Whew! You guys are smart. Let's see:
PETER: I can see some of your hermaphroditic point, especially from a purely metaphoric sense. I don't know if it truly develops throughout the book or not, but I will definitely be looking out for it now.
SHANNON: Also interesting, this oil metaphor. I've heard this before, but I think there's more going on that just oil here. I know that in the foreword (or afterword?) of DUNE: MESSIAH (the worst book of the whole series), Herbert talks a lot about playing with the idea of prescience, and the addiction to same. I'm not saying the oil allegory isn't in full effect, but I think you could point to ANY system that revolves around a single quantity in short supply and make a similar application.
DAVE: The book shifts from exposition/worldbuilding in the first 100 or so pages to souped-up action and religious mysticism afterwards. When I try (usually unsuccessfully) to get people to read Dune, I tell them to try and make it past that point. Once the whole betrayal thing goes down that Yueh is already guilt-ridden over, the action really ratchets up.
PEN: I love that drawing–I at first thought it was a girl in a stillsuit. I have a similar problem with imagining the movie, but it's been a million years since I've seen it, and I had read the book a couple of times before I first saw it, so I already had a sort of picture of the main characters before I saw it.
Which to me is crazy fortunate–I like most of the visuals in the movie (albeit not a lot else), but was scandalized when I first saw the Baron in it–least threatening-looking villain ever. I see Harkonnen as sort of an obscenely obese Caesar, big fleshy lips, sweaty, but cunning, like an animal cunning.
SHANE: I'm with you. I might also point out that a lot of the phrases and terms in the book come both directly and indirectly from Abramaic cultures (is that a real word), especially Arab and Hebrew. Especially once the Fremen show up–most of the words used in the desert, religious ideas, etc.
Hey Pen, I hear what you mean. Dune is a really loaded concept just because there has been a film made with a distinct visual style to it. I remember reading up on the film after I watched it again maybe two years ago. I guess some producers got Moebius, Jodorowsky, and Giger (and others) together to draft some concepts for a possible production of the film. It was nice to see since some of those concepts were way different than what ended up in Lynch's dark gothic Dune film (maybe they ran with the Giger designs). Especially Moebius's drawings which are super colorful.
Here are links to some of that stuff. Maybe they can help shatter your brain images of "Dune"! http://www.duneinfo.com/unseen/moebius.asp http://www.duneinfo.com/unseen/jodorowsky.asp
I read some of Jodorowsky and Giminez's Metabarons comics before reading Dune and I think they both go together well visually. It would be cool to see a Jodorowsky version of Dune if it could have happened.
Okay guys keep your comments coming, I need to finish inking my comic for the week so I'm going to try and stay out of things for a few hours.
You could replace "oil" or "spice" with "commerce" or "power". It's about this addiction to trade and the need to have leverage or power so that you can ensure the better trade. Call it capitalism or whatever you want but I think one of the things Herbert is showing is that as soon as a culture starts trading with other cultures it is locked into this machine it can not escape. Once the flow starts it can't be turned back and those involved can't even imagine the though of stopping. It's like there is no, "well what do we do when we run out of spice". Not an option. The spice must flow. I think we real world humans as a whole are just beginning to entertain the idea that, ya know, one day we might run out of oil.
Dune has made me convinced the education of childhood could and should be demanding, that children are capable of learning and mastering a number of languages simultaneously– and that American education in general is demonstrably below acceptable standards. The Atreides also understood that it is a family's job to education a child and prepare him/her for a future of struggle and battle. Campbell talks a lot about initiation rites, Paul experiences these throughout the book, first with the Atreides, then the Sisterhood, then the Fremen, and finally against the Emperor himself.
PS– I highly recommend Brain Herbert's book, Dreamer Of Dune, which discusses Herbert's life and ideas from a son's perspective. F Herbert attributes a lot of his notions about the Bene Gesserit to the influence and example of his grandmother and mother.
Dusty, I think you're right on about the idea of systems and forces, especially when you take Herbert's dedication to dry-land ecologists into consideration. It then becomes hard not to see Herbert viewing all aspects of his Dune universe, both abstract and material, as subsets of a unified system that acts on and against one another to create an entirely new living whole. That approach is what I think keeps Paul's coming-of- age story from becoming too sentimental.
Regarding world-building: Herbert pulls a really neat trick, employing a technological singularity to allow all sorts of anachronistic ideas to mesh believably in the Dune universe. For myself, that's interesting, as I think most would agree the plausible extrapolation of current technology and its effect on society is the metric by which "serious" SF is measured. I poked around and discovered that the idea of a technological singularity was (coincidentally?) first posited in 1965 by I.J. Good, a British Cryptologist. It wasn't until 82, though, when Vernor Vinge theorized that modeling the human future after such an event was impossible. In that regard, Herbert seems to be way ahead of his time.
Here at the beginning I'm struck by the commingling of eugenics with what seems to be a somewhat humanist philosphy: instead of measuring physical traits, the Bene Gesserit measure one's degree of human purity according to one's capacity to structure thought and action within a moral framework. During the test of the Gom Jabbar, the Reverend Mother uses the illustration of an animal in a trap to denote the "animal" instinct for self preservation and the "human" instinct of societal preservation.
I'm always fascinated when I read Dune how easy it is to read this as an intended subversion of the traditional portal-quest fantasy, which wasn't all that traditional/beat to death when Dune was published. All throughout the book, Herbert sets up the the tropes Tolkien made popular, then he knocks them down. I don't know that I'd call Dune a direct response to Tolkien, though, because LOTR didn't break big in America until the mid sixties at exactly the time Dune came out . Still, here at the beginning, Herbert is already setting up certain tropes: a child born to fulfill a destiny, on the cusp of stepping through a portal from one world to the next. Too, you have an authorial history imposed on the reader in the form of Princess Irulan's history of Muad' Dib. In fact, the whole book reads with the sweep of a historical epic-a reader positioning usually aligned with fantasy rather than SF. Throughout the book, we're constantly reminded of how the distant past affects the here and now of Dune's universe.
Is Paul a child born to fulfill a destiny or do they use their knowledge of prophecy to shape him and manipulate superstitions to their advantage?
I agree with your assertion, Shannon. Without getting spoilery and jumping ahead, though, the difference in how Herbert positions the reader to understand the context of Paul's destiny/ prophesied role, as opposed to how a straight-up fantasy writer would contextualize for the reader his/her protagonist's destiny/ prophesied role is how I think Herbert subverts that particular trope of destiny and prophecy fulfillment.
@Shannon- I would say both. Paul wasn't suppose to be born at all, "but what's done is done." Therefore the Bene Gesserit do try and mold and shape him for political advantage. Saying more would be spoiling I think. But everything happens for a reason. Paul IS a child of destiny as well. As further chapters (and books) reveal.
Lot's of good points here and so as not to rehash I think I'll say that one thing that struck me in this rereading was the idea of "CONTROL" Control of people, control of internal physiology, control of CHOAM and other trade/political matters. With this come "LACK OF CONTROL" I think these two warring forces are a bit of a theme. Disciplined,noble tactitun almost House Atreides vs. Indolent, savage, hedonistic House Harkonnen. I won't get into how i think this duality plays out later but I think even in these first pages it is there. Order vs Chaos.
Maybe?
:D
@Peter haha that sweet sketch just scored you a Eat World zine sale! :D
Jordan, I think you're right on about Order vs. Chaos. Right at the beginning, after generations of careful, meticulous planning to mingle the Harkonnen and Atreides bloodlines to reach the Bene Gesserit's desired result, Jessica had to throw a spanner in the works by falling in love with Leto. The fact the Paul was born despite so much careful planning, that the Bene Gesserit failed to account for human emotion, plays right into the notion of chaos rearing it's head at the worst possible moment for those seeking to impose order.
Jordan! Thanks! Rock on…I'll mail it out tomorrow!
I've kept my browser closed most of today and whoah…will have to do some catching up on this conversation later. So stoked to read everybody's reactions.
I want to start off by saying that this is not only my first reading of Dune, but my first time reading any science fiction novel EVER. So the context in which I am reading this is one of ignorance and wonder.
I'm going to have to say that, like Pendelton, I'm having a great deal of trouble creating images in my head to correspond with this story. I think a lot of that has to do with competing historical and futuristic imagery. Paul is placed within a feudal system, he's born into a kind of royal class and lives in a castle and such and has loads of people hired to serve him in a number of ways, namely by teaching him various things. He's being trained to fight, he's being trained as a Mentat, he's been given lessons by Dr. Yueh who comes from the apparently Suk School, and his mother is also teaching him the ways of the Bene Gesserit. It seems to me that Paul is being sculpted into something of a Renaissance man, which brings to mind similar ideas of antiquity that this feudal system also recalls. And then there's the fencing and the Baron looking at his globe and all that very low-tech stuff. But! They've also got shields they have to activate that make the room smell like ozone. So my brain has got some serious competing imagery going on in there that's hard to reconcile. Maybe I'll get used to it as we continue on through the book.
I am also super fascinated by the role that gender is playing in this story and feel not so much that Paul, in his challenge to see both feminine and masculine pasts is not so much being called upon to act as male and female simultaneously, but to supercede gender entirely. So perhaps he is a kind of "superman" as Dustin suggests.
I'm into this post-post-apocalyptic story. Like there was once a machine-based society, much like we have today (a bookclub on the internets, that's crazy!) but then it had to go for whatever reason, and I can't see that transition being an easy one. So some totally terrible thing had to happen before society rebuilds itself into this new system when Paul lives. And as the Reverend Mother says, she sees in the future "only what [she's] seen int he past." Which is unnerving a bit. Like this whole society could also collapse in the midst of this conflict, because we know it's happened before. So we have the fact of a previous society-ending occurrence and a vague threat of another impending "apocalypse" maybe not in any religious, or ecological way but in more of a political way.
Ooooh, intrigue…
Oh man, I am loving reading all this stuff. Very nice summary and starting-point, Dustin…
A few things that I'm struck by so far– The setting is very striking, and that's usually the aspect most interesting to me in scifi/fantasy stuff. I love the timelessness of it– Space travel is so ancient that cultures take it for granted and it doesn't even seem that science-fictiony. Whole cultures are built up on these massively high-tech precedents, so that everything is so far removed from reality that it doesn't even seem like 'the future.' Makes much more sense than a future where everything is just shinier and better, as if we're on a constant journey forwards with no setbacks. Not sure if I'm making sense?
I'm interested in the quotes opening each 'chapter;' they seem to really change the narrative flow of it so far. Like, we already basically know about some of the Big Things that are going to happen, because we've read things written long after the story takes place about them. Also, the early scene with the Harkonnens shows us Yueh's position right away, doesn't it? Anyway I wouldn't approach the story like this, if I were writing it, because there's a lot of room for Big Reveals… but I kind of like this approach for a story that seems to me BIGGER than the characters themselves, I think.
Also I LOVE the idea of the Spacing Guild– a huge, obsessively secretive group that monopolizes space travel, I think? Very interesting
Pen and Emi are saying their images are a bit muddled by the Lynch movie, and mine are too! I really want to draw something to help me figure out what it all looks like so I will send you something Dustin!
Hey! I just wanted to say this first:
I stumbled on this book club a few moments earlier while I was on twitter. I searched "DUNE" because I wanted to talk to other fans. (My band is doing a Dune series inspired album and we want more eyes and opinions in the project)
So, Hi! I'm MaryBeth!
Shannon- Your point (11:56 am Oct 19) is really good. I agree that these people are bound together, working towards keeping and having MORE spice the way we are with oil. But the spice melange isn't just oil. Its like if oil were also a psychedelic drug that could be either dangerous OR helpful to the mind. Very cool combo! Drive my car using it and drive my MIND using it! Its the allspice. :)
DHARBIN- I tell people "keep truckin!" whenever I lend the book. Very few hang on with me. But word around town is "Arrakis was created to test the faithful". :)
My below response is pretty spoliery…so read on if you dare!
Todd Harlan totally.
LOVE this: "unified system that acts on and against one another to create an entirely new living whole."
I think Herbert's idea of the Fremen who live at one with their land, effectively, understanding the necessity of life and death as a constant moving whole must have been very aware to him as a writer. It is like Native Americans. They had it all figured out! They were doin' fine…until people put prices on their resources. The spice for the fremen isn't THAT special to them, its everywhere, they are one with the land and therefore one with the spice.
Once the spice is NEEDED by a non-Fremen source, the Fremen feel threatened and then have to deal with the complications of people who aren't one with each other, their land, their resources (A very "farming was the downfall" idea to me). It is unfortunate that so many of the Fremen developed water-envy. But they may not have had it if off-worlders didn't come there in the first place and take their spice and use them.
They wouldn't have known of "the sea" and they would have known only their ways, only their resources. I think once you start comparing yourself and becoming envious or lustful after a resource you don't have, you grow very vulnerable.
The whole mahdi prophecy and religion surrounding it was the only sucky thing the Fremen made before DUNE starts. But where did that come from anyway? I love Liet, man, but he needs to stop with the jealousy. His people, his home…they're fine just as they are. They've survived this long, I'm sure it'll be OK without rain. Maybe it was his interaction with the Harkonnen and Corrino that bred the jealousy in him to be so active about his ecology changing plans.
Or maybe he WAS just REALLY thirsty and couldn't wait for someone to evoke "Amtal!" Hey, if I got cranky enough from being sooo thirsty and it was OK to evoke "Amtal!" whenever…I'd totally do it to the guy from my seitch that was the worst guy in the gene pool. Weed him out. I'm a girl, I could just shank him for the good of the tribe. And then I'd be like "Its for the good of the tribe, guys. We took a vote amongst the women and none of us wanted to reproduce with him. His only worth is in his water….Sorry, Larry…"
A DUNE inspired band . . . **MIND BLOWN**
Hi Mary Beth, thanks for the input! But let's keep the discussion on the chapters we've read so far; several of us are reading it for the first time!
hey dudes! i just wanted to check in! i'm new to dune and i thought i'd join in this little arrakis attackis. i'm rather busy right now but i just wanted to let ya know i did the reading and so far it's amazing! i'll weigh in heavy after i get this commercial i'm working on done. SHAZAM!
Whew! Okay, where to start?
PULP: This weird trial-by-fire idea of Herbert's seems to run through all the books, and is a core part of his messiah ideas. You're making me want to read that Dreamer of Dune just to figure out what was going on in his childhood to build those ideas.
TODD: Dang son, you went to college! I would say, vis a vis the idea of worldbuilding, that one of the things that makes Herbert's world so good is that (although it may not seem so yet), he actually doesn't do a ton of clunky worldbuilding, like a long setup before the story starts. A lot of things remain only half-sketched in (the Missionaria Protectiva, the Landsraad Council, etc), because it's not really that necessary for us to really GET all these concepts. I'm a huge fan of the idea of creating art that makes the audience work a little bit to absorb it, it's one of my biggest challenges in my comics, trying not to just lay everything out there all BLAH.
Plus, Herbert's world is very much based on "real" world principles of desert nomadic cultures, ecology, etc. So he has the luxury of being able to drape his more fantastic ideas over this solid foundation.
BUT TODD: I like your points about eugenics/humanism the best, because to me this is one of the main tensions in the book, and indeed in all the books. Or maybe more properly, DESTINY/humanism. The idea that certain things are inevitable seems at constant tension with the idea that each person is personally capable of anything. "What senses do we lack that we do not see another world all around us?"
EMI: Do you think the Reverend Mother's assertion about only being able to see what she's seen before is a mystical one or a computational one?
EVAN: I'm with you on the little pre-chapter epigrams. Sometimes they're kind of annoying, but I like what they do to the rhythm of the story, especially before big action scenes. They make you draw a breath and get ready for something.
Plus, as a character device, we learn a lot about the Princess Irulan through her writings about things, which of course take place long after the events of the story. So we are getting info not only about the story, but about her reflexively, which is interesting later.
ALSO HEY EVERYBODY: Note that I updated the end of the main post to mark where to read to for next week.
Awesome comments since yesterday guys. This "book club" is already 10 times more awesomer than I thought it was going to be and I thought it was going to be pretty awesome.
Some random thoughts based on comments…
1) On the control and chaos vs. order stuff. What's kind of funny to me is that if you look at all the parties they all want power but none of them want any real change. Just a little leverage. None of them really want to change the status quo… except the Atreides and the Harkonnen. The problem with them is that they are not playing by the rules. They are not properly engaged in the ongoing constant push and pull for leverage in the power game. They introduce this new element which is their grudge against each other and hunger for vengeance. Those are illogical human characteristics that send the whole universe out of wack. It's a blood feud that wrecks the status qou which is a very Greek thing. More on all that as we see it play out in later chapters.
2) And speaking of later chapters, I can't wait to get into Dr. Yueh and his issues. He's like a book unto himself. All I'll say at this point early on is pay attention to him and think about what you would do in his shoes.
3) And on Paul being destiny vs. manipulation of superstitions- I was playing devil's advocate by throwing that out there. Personally I think it's both. We'll get into that more as we go along too but I think the point is that even with all the genetics and the training and all that- Paul has to make really hard choices and I do think he controls his destiny- at least in this first book. He's got gifts/skills/talents/etc. to be a superman but nothing is easy. Not one second of this book is easy. He has to do the work. He has to chose to be what prophecies say could be a messiah or a monster. Scary stuff. And he's just a kid at the beginning. Scary stuff.
Suddenly I remember another Paul, Paul McCartney talking about taking LSD for the first time. He talked about how he was hesitant to do it because he was afraid it was something where you can't go back. He said something like "you can't go home again". Dune is like that.
4) Totally unrelated but I'm reading old Captain America comics from 1965 and there is a story about "sleepers" that must awaken. What a decade.
Good points Shannon. But hey you guys, we're getting so serious and in-depth here, I think it's worth noting that Dune is (or will become, pretty soon) an adventure-epic-cum-messiah-myth. There are a lot of levels you can read it at that don't require a college degree, which all you guys apparently have and which I lack.
But my favorite level is as BIBLE. I grew up super religious, but am not at all anymore. My favorite way to read Dune is as a collection of wisdoms, like the Bible itself. Rereading it is like rolling back through aphorisms I've been repeating to myself for the last 20 years. In fact, in future posts, I might just list the amazing sayings in whatever part we just read. So many similarities for me between Dune and the Bible–Dune is, if anything, like a humanist Bible.
The little epigrams at the beginning of each chapter are one of my favourite things about Dune. I love as already mentioned small unexplained glimpses into a very complex historied background.
But then again I loved all the prequels that went and nailed down all the references. :D
Also Duncan Idaho is THE MAN!!
Well, Dustin, I was trying to refrain myself from going all Bible on ya but since you mention it… yeah, I've always seen it the same way.
I see the little intros to each chapter as being like little gospel excerpts and I think that is cool how the story/Paul means different things to different people but to each person, it is like "gospel" fact, like history. Which is, in my opinion, one of the great things about the Bible gospels in that it is four different points of view on one thing. Which, invites controversy and contradiction but at the same time reinforces the importance of the story. I think that's what Herbert is doing with those intros. He's making it myth, folklore, history and scripture all at once. Pretty genius.
And since I've got my Bible pants on, another thing I was kind of hinting at in the whole prophecy/manipulation thing with Paul is a commentary on religion. I'm not sure how to word what I'm getting at but, the point I think Herbert is making with this is that whether prophecy is real or not, the person has to do the work. I think he's commenting on faith a bit. Paul can have all the faith in the world in his training but he still has to get up and do the work. My man JC had total faith but he still had to do it. Being born did not fulfill prophecy. He had to do it. He had to choose that path and walk that walk. So, like you said it's a humanist Bible. Personally I think that's a wonderful thing. When you read religious texts or even just mytholgoy it is so hard to see the people as real people. So hard to relate to it. But Herbert gives you this boy and you are right there with him as he's going throught his crazy stuff. Even though it's sci-fi, it's very human. Big brains on that Herbert guy.
Well see a lot more Bible stuff as we move along so I'll try not to get ahead of myself and try not to hijack this thing into some sort of Bible study.
Hey, sorry I got all over the place. I got really excited. It was very strange the way that this book club started and I stumbled on it between writing a DUNE series based EP.
That energy aside, I will now read where you guys are. I'm very new to book clubs, hopefully this will start an awesome new hobby for me.
You guys are very smart. I love it.
So Paul is a bastard son just like Anakin Skywalker?
"To Tame A Land"
Iron Maiden
(Steve Harris)
He is the king of all the land
In the Kingdom of the sands
Of a time tomorrow.
He rules the sandworms and the Fremen
In a land amongst the stars
Of an age tomorrow.
He is destined to be a King
He rules over everything
On the land called planet Dune.
Bodywater is your life
And without it you would die
On the desert the planet Dune.
Without a stillsuit you would fry
On the sands so hot and dry
In a world called Arrakis.
It is a land that's rich in spice
The sandriders and the "mice"
That they call the Muad Dib.
He is the Kwizatz Haderach.
He is born of Caladan
And will take the Gom Jabbar.
He has the power to foresee
Or to look into the past
He is the ruler of the stars
The time will come for him
to lay claim his crown,
And then the foe yes
they'll be cut down,
You'll see he'll be the
best that there's been,
Messiah supreme
true leader of men,
And when the time
for judgement's at hand
Don't fret he's strong
and he'll make a stand,
Against evil and fire
That spreads through the land,
He has the power
to make it all end.
Preston– hopefully this is no spoiler– Paul's parents were both married and in love, he's legit. The sisterhood ordered Jessica to sire a girl (in order to be bred with Feyd, a birth which was planned to bring about the first KH, which the sisterhood could control). Jessica defied orders out of love for her husband.
Is it widely known that prior to his career as a sci-fi writer, Herbert did some time as an investigative journalist and studied land reclamation projects in Oregon? He did a piece on scientists who were systematically fighting back the encroachment of sand dunes upon grassy lands in Northern Oregon, that's where he said he first started to think about the larger themes (and likely to see the imagery) which would inform Dune.
Pulp I BELIEVE that Jessica and Leto are unmarried, at least according to the conversation she has with Dr. Yueh in the next part. I'm trying to remember if there's a secret wedding that gets referred to retroactively later on, but I'm drawing a blank.
Having said that, I don't think Paul's bastard heritage is all that important, except a) to underline the more calculating, less romantic side of Leto's character, and the political necessities of his world; and b) to highlight Jessica's strange otherness in all the worlds she inhabits, including her faux-marriage, her place in the Sisterhood she defied to bear a son, and later in the story when… well, later.
Dharbin!- You are correct, unmarried. Jessica is the Duke's concubine (but true love). Just another layer of medieval/feudal times. Marriages are for political stature.
On the marriage thing, Jessica mentions that as long as Duke Leto remains unmarried there can be the possibility of alliances with other families through marriage. Leto jokes about having not married Jessica too when they arrive at Arrakis when they're talking about their dining arrangements and formality.
Leto seems pragmatic to me in not marrying Jessica since if they were wed then the Atreides house would be partially diplomatically severed from other houses. It seems like they both recognize this, but would much rather have it otherwise.
Briefly back to my couple points about the androgyny of Paul, I was thinking forward a little to when Feyd comes onto the scene as a foil to Paul. They both have this semi androgynous nature to them, so they start out similarly. It's intense to think that if the Bene Gesserit order had it's way that they would have married, but since Paul was born a dude everything is in disorder.
Paul is a young man, should have been a young woman, and he has been taught in combat, mentat abilities, Bene Gesserit training, and is being raised as the future head of the Atreides house. He's ambiguous in that he's saturated with potential and once the adventure begins he can begin to shape himself to meet and exceed his challenges.
Peter you are hot for this androgyny thing, you have been listening to your Bowie records hard this week I bet.
Two things I've always thought were poorly explained in the book, or at least don't seem to quite jibe right, are a) non-marriage of Leto and Jessica for "political" reasons–it's out of line with the rest of the character sketch we have, they're all so independent and noble and so forth, the political reasons given seem pretty scant to me.
And b) this whole reason for the "vendetta" between Harkonnens and Atreides–"having a Harkonnen banished for cowardice after the Battle of Corrin" seems, again, wispy, especially given the strength of most of the rest of the book, in terms of how well-thought out things are.
I also have some problems with the character of Dr. Yueh, but we'll save those for next time.
As far as the rivalry between Atredies and Harkonnen there are not a lot of details in this book. (At least not so far.) All the houses are rivals but Harkonen, Atredies and the Emperor's house, Corrino all seem to be cousins if I'm reading it correctly. Or at least I seem to remember the Barron referring to the Duke as a cousin and something about the Duke being a cousin to the Emperor. I do think it is more of a multi-generational blood feud thing. Maybe they don't even remember why. But those three houses are connected. One point worth noticing is that the Atredies house is really not a powerful house without it's connection to the Emperor. The Duke talks about not being a wealthy house and that their main export is just rice. So, on the surface, them getting Arakis is probably a slap in the face to a lot of houses. But yeah, if there was one event that Herbert had pointed out that might have made it stronger as far as the storytelling goes.
The marriage thing is just about Leto needing to keep himself available in case there is a chance to marry into Corrino or another powerful house. Even if he never plans to do it, it gives him leverage. I love the stuff with Leto and Jessica though and wish there was more of it. Books withing books in this sucker.
Another thing I'm noticing more this read through is teachers and education. I guess this is my first re-read through it after being a parent myself. I notice how Paul has all these different teachers and they all come from totally different schools of thought. I guess that is pretty common in nobility but I don't think it happens as much anymore. I have no idea what rich people think or do these days. Anywho… Paul is an apprentice to many masters. (And more to come as we move along.) And it seems to be that no one school of thought is more important than the others. Training with the knife and shield is just as important as the science/history stuff with Yueh, or the Mentat stuff or the Bene Gesserit stuff or the political stuff with the Duke. Not sure I have any kind of point there. I just find it interesting. It also makes me think, what kind of teacher am I to my kids.
On the education tip, Shannon and Pulp, I can't remember off hand if–well hold on, I'll just get the book…
Well nevermind, I can't find it. Anyway, the passage was something like "one of his first lessons was in HOW to learn, and the fact that he was capable of learning in the first place." Again, humans as computers, humans as data absorbers/processors, humans as self-actualized and self-contained… godlings? What? Maybe humanism doesn't need any end result except humanity. I don't know, I didn't go to college, and philosophy is only interesting to me in pragmatic application. So.
Yeah that's the bit. Its from one of the intros about how Paul was able to learn so fast is that he had been taught how to learn. Good stuff. He also does the Mentat trick where he'll blink his eyes and memorize a face and name. Lots of great learning tools in this book that can be used in the real world. The mantras and things they recite. You didn't need college or philosophy classes Dustin. Dune covers all that. It's the how to be a human or how to not be an animal handbook.
Shannon- DUNE does cover it all. Agree.
Dharbin- you said this: "Two things I’ve always thought were poorly explained in the book, or at least don’t seem to quite jibe right, are a) non-marriage of Leto and Jessica for “political” reasons–it’s out of line with the rest of the character sketch we have, they’re all so independent and noble and so forth, the political reasons given seem pretty scant to me."
Lady Jessica is a legal concubine. Her education, her job, her entire upbringing culminated in the role she had to play for politics. The only job she had was to bear an Atreides daughter to be wed to a Harkonnen heir. The Bene Gesserit control royal bloodlines, they raise young girls to be brilliant but to be used.
The fact that she chose to go against her duty in the slightest is what makes her "independent and noble". Her duke honors the choice she made for him and they are in love. But they both understand that formal marriage isn't in the cards and frankly they know everyone knows they rebelled against "who is in charge".
Jessica made a really bold choice, she chose to give The Duke a son (I believe she was instructed "a daughter and NO sons" when she was assigned to him). At the risk of the wishes of the Bene Gesserit whose breeding goal wasn't just a Harkonnen son marrying an Atriedes daughter to end the feud but the kwisatz haderach being born of that union. Royal blood directly and in name from both sides plus the spiritual power.
I hear you Mary Beth, and I guess I understood all that–what I mean is I think that, given the great SIGNIFICANCE of the motives and decisions of most of the characters in the story, including Jessica later on, this early pre-novel decision seems a little thin to me.
If there's one thing Herbert does well, it's putting each character at the vanguard of their various disciplines–Paul is truly surrounded by a pantheon of brilliant thinkers and doers. Thufir Hawat is peerless as a Mentat tactician, Duncan Idaho (later, I know) is the apogee of faith and valor and swordsmanship. Even later characters like Stilgar, Liet-Kynes, etc., who we'll discuss in a couple of weeks, all are the best of their groups. Lady Jessica is the one person who, before the book even begins, betrays a lifetime of teaching and discipline–and indeed, very important and rigorous teaching, as we'll see–because "he so wanted a son." Just doesn't fly. One of the few things you'll hear me grouse about, don't worry.
I see what you are getting at Dustin because Jessica does stick to her training/conditioning 99.9% of the time but she breaks that one rule. Yet, she keeps other secrets from the Duke. Isn't it Yueh who is questioning her in his thoughts. He's thinking something like, she is the one person that could have stopped the Duke from going to Arakkis but she didn't. So, she loves him enough to give him a son but not enough to stop him from going to Dune? Maybe it's just in her blood to be contrary but we'll get into her blood line down the road. We get that one chapter with her and Yueh that covers a lot of ground if you pay attention to it. They are in similar boats. Maybe another chapter or so just on what's going on with them before it all breaks loose would have made for a stronger book. It's still a damn strong book though.
Not to jump ahead and spoil…but I would say right now Jessica is a flawed Bene Gesserit. She bore a son and is admonished, she loves and is overly emotional, yet strong, smart, well conditioned and a good teacher to Paul. Flawed in the eyes of the BG. But later…just have to read on. :-)
I think the Jessica character is amazing; in fact, the female characters in the book are all incredibly strong characters, nuanced and complex and for the most part totally tough broads. I'm just saying it's a failing of Herbert the WRITER, it's a note that sounds out of tune in an otherwise well-written little symphony.